Pay by Bank Is Coming for Cash, Not Cards, with Johannes Kolbeinsson

00:00:00.040 — 00:00:24.360 · Speaker 1

I’ve never seen my parents using a come to account. They just scratch their heads and they just. No, no, I’m just going to use my car. That’s it. They do not realize that the merchant is paying in the end. And some of the answers were, yeah, we are beating the system much quicker. So what is happening with this?

With the stablecoin? There’s a whole new banking system being created beside of the traditional banking realms.

00:00:35.560 — 00:00:58.680 · Speaker 2

Hello everyone, and welcome back to Fintech Guardian podcast. I’m Dumitru Condra, founder of NovaFin and co-founder of Fintech Garden. And I have today with me, a very strong professional, a person who knows a lot about transactions, a lot about how old things can be reshaped and rebuild it in new approaches.

Mr. Johannes Kolbeinsson, welcome and hello.

00:00:59.250 — 00:01:01.090 · Speaker 1

Hello. Thank you for having me.

00:01:01.130 — 00:01:45.730 · Speaker 2

Very often you are present at different big conferences regarding fintech and we had one of our discussion. Last discussion was at Money20/20 in Amsterdam this year. And during that, and also in the discussion I heard you had with different other people, you mentioned something very interesting thing.

Even if a counter account has been evolving for five years, it’s already overreached. Why? And that pay bank is coming for cash, not for cards. Why do you think this is happening? When Visa, Mastercard. We have Visa, Mastercard, we have credit cards. We have so many integrations. Apple, Google Pay, a lot of alternative payment methods.

Why people and companies themselves. Financial companies are looking back to account-to-account trails.

00:01:45.770 — 00:03:51.660 · Speaker 1

I’m not sure. So the account-to-account payments are following St two. And there’s some opening for EMIs and PPIs to provide some Banking services, but it’s still complicated when you go into making a payment through an account-to-account payment. If you make a payment on a website, then it’s still three, four, five, six steps.

While, uh, the card payments, they’re just normally one step and that’s it. Maybe two steps if there’s a 3D secure. But um, so the complications has prevented it from gaining real traction. And then if you look at the wallets like Apple Pay and, uh, that makes it still even easier it’s really just hard for account-to-account payments to, to compete

Also, there are some limitations on, uh, how much providers can charge for it. And that, uh, has made it, uh, a hard time for those who are inventing these solutions to get paid for their inventions. And, general, these payment methods have been struggling. Uh, maybe they’re just too cheap for the technology that’s behind it.

And if that’s the case, then, uh, security and other things are at risk. Well, a good test for new payment methods is to whether it’s the same openness or is it simple? And then if you do it, if you are maybe you’re savvy on your phone and, uh, but do your kids use it or do your parents use it? I mean, I’ve never seen my parents using a come to account.

They just scratch their head and they just. No, no, I’m just going to use my card. That’s it. So changes take place every new developments are slow in fintech and financial services when it’s about handling your money. And it has to be safe secured something that you know and that you trust. Visa and Mastercard.

Actually, they just have a payment guarantee. And, uh, it’s trusted, so it’s difficult to compete with that.

00:03:52.180 — 00:04:35.550 · Speaker 3

Before we continue. A quick note from the devs on Fintech Garden. We often talk about the gap between a strong fintech idea and the infrastructure needed to actually launch it. That’s exactly where Fintech corps by devs comes in. It gives banks, fintechs and crypto fintech teams the core building blocks behind the product onboarding account, ledger, payments cards, integrations, compliance workflows and back office.

With Fintech Corps, you ship faster than you would be building it yourself, and you keep more control than a rigid white label allows. Scan the code or tap the link in the description to book a fit. Call with our team and see what launching on Fintech Corps would look like for your product.

00:04:35.590 — 00:05:50.200 · Speaker 2

I deliberately started the interview and discussion with you by saying that I may not agree with you because basically your statements and everything you’re saying and even right now, what you said is that account account is overreached. They don’t erode the Mastercard or Visa where American Express rails at all, which I have a little bit, uh, doubt and I will not, and not so much agree with you only because, um, and I made this intentionally, as I said, uh, just to create a base of for dialogue between two of us.

I saw from my side that, for example, Visa and Mastercard are running different projects, different initiatives, like in the United Kingdom when they were entering into the account-to-account market. They want to make account-to-account as easy and smooth as a card-to-card transfer and payment. It’s not average.

It’s like it arrived at the moment when everything seems to be stucked, but at the same time appears. Players, even big ones like visa, Mastercard who are investing money to make it more seamless. To make it more simple. I honestly think that account-to-account has a future only because people banks are tired to pay those inter charging fees, and I still believe in the future of this old product.

00:05:50.240 — 00:07:52.750 · Speaker 1

Yeah, but, uh, like you said, you said it yourself. So. Well, Visa and Mastercard are now investing in trying to make it simpler. If they succeed in making it simpler, then I believe that it has a chance. Currently, it’s just too complicated. And, uh, what visa and Mastercard and other card schemes have been doing?

Well, of course they charge for it and it’s nothing is free. But they also not create an ecosystem, so it enables them to invest in new development. If you cannot charge for it like some of the account or account solutions, uh, that have gained traction in some countries, if you are not able to charge for it, then you don’t have any income to invest in further development.

So then you’re then you become stuck. Of course, both Visa and Mastercard are now investing a lot in, uh, Visa Direct and in, uh, Mastercard money and, uh, programs where they’re making it easier to send money across continents and across companies. And this is a little bit, uh, in competition with, uh, well, all the banking systems and Swift systems and so on.

And if they will be able to make that easier, they will profit there as well, because and then, of course, they can be more efficient, but they still have to charge for it. And then they can create an income from it. And in the end it has to be profitable. Otherwise it is not sustainable. If it’s losing money, then it will die.

They are come to account. They work in some countries. Some countries have picked up and then the final competitor is, is uh is cash account to account is converting cash into account to account rather than car payment. Same with Varo and Digital Euro and all these new methods that are coming out which are quite interesting as well.

They will not succeed unless they will be. The user experience will be good if they will have simple Usage and effective that it works. Otherwise it won’t.

00:07:52.790 — 00:08:34.990 · Speaker 2

Well, basically you just put it everything on shelf. You put it perfectly and showed why the fintech industry is wrong about account-to-account because you just like, hey, we have this issue, we have this issue. Maybe your parents will work on this, maybe your children, but currently that’s not the reason.

But you being you develop your business. You have very strong reputation in developing and acquiring business and from your acquiring seat. I’m still trying to to, to maybe to to to show you another, another side of a story. So maybe you saw the numbers and you can share those numbers with us. Maybe you saw some trends in increasing the accounts account transfers.

Maybe you know some details inside, but we don’t know and we don’t observe because you’re in a choir and you have raw data of transactions. And not only.

00:08:34.990 — 00:09:11.150 · Speaker 1

I don’t really have much numbers, we have as PAYSTRAX; we require we provide the acquiring mainly as visa, Mastercard, um, because that’s the biggest demand. We have asked our merchants, okay. Do we want to have a counter account because we have some partnering companies that can provide that service as well, and we can incorporate it into our gateway and we can offer it.

And they say, no, don’t worry. We we we just keep with visa Mastercard. That’s it. And that’s like 90%. So that’s the only data I have. We don’t have any demand for it. Uh, so yeah. Therefore I don’t have any numbers as well

00:09:11.190 — 00:10:19.320 · Speaker 2

If to speak about the cards because this is your main base, is doing mostly work with visa Mastercard. Uh, you just recently purchased a company called No Checks. Uh, so it gave a footprint in the United Kingdom. You have six offices. So quite a big presence in the European Union or even on the European continent.

How long? 20 years in the business, I think. Yes, for you, Johannes, you’re in being an acquirer. I think you maybe don’t see the numbers for 8 to 8, but you see how the card volumes are increasing. Maybe you see the trends where the card schemes are now starting to be very popular. Maybe you have. I don’t know.

You have a picture, for example, that in some countries you observe that exist as a growth for card usage. For example, in Europe, somewhere where Middle East, wherever. But in other countries, you see that people started to use less cards or they started to use cards for with a different behavior. Also, we also take in consideration of the fact that visa Mastercard now changed their fraud policies, and they started to invest quite a lot of money and forces into this.

How what do you see? What are the trends on the card scheme market in Europe currently?

00:10:19.360 — 00:10:48.330 · Speaker 1

I still see that there is considerable growth. Um, and as I mentioned earlier, the cash usage is the that’s the main competitor. So all all these methods are uh, are converting cash. I think still the market for both visa, Mastercard and other payment Methods is growing because a lot of things are better than cash.

Of course, maybe, um,

00:10:49.930 — 00:11:32.810 · Speaker 1

not many agree with me on that, but, uh, and then cash will always exist. But, uh, if we look at the Nordic countries, uh, if we look at, for example, Iceland, I think is less than 1% cash in use. And if you have cash, then people look at you. And what where did you get that from? It’s almost strange. It’s so convenient to be cashless.

Um, so I think the trend will continue, but, uh, retail sales, uh, continue to grow. And after retail sales, both card payments and, uh, well, it’s not any card payments anymore. It’s wallet payments. Uh, and uh, alternative payments, uh, will can gain market from cash. You mentioned the

00:11:33.850 — 00:15:19.200 · Speaker 1

developments in the card schemes, uh, to counter, uh, fraud and to put more stricter rules. That’s probably an area where the schemes are. Well, they’re taking the wrong direction, that they’re taking wrong steps because, uh, this is moving some volumes away from the cards from Visa, Mastercard, where you have, uh, fraud rates on subscription payments, um, where maybe 80% of the frauds are actually friendly.

Fraud. Friendly fraud is not friendly. It’s, uh, it’s well, the first it’s first party fraud is if I make the transaction myself, and then later I say, oh, no, this was a mistake. I don’t want to make this, but I still did it. I did the transaction. But you have a way out by talking to a bank and you say, ah, you claim this is a fraud.

So if I say to the bank, no, no, no, this is a fraud. I was never this was never supposed to happen. And whenever the bank normally says, yeah, okay, whatever you say. And just sign this form and then you’re good, you get the money back. So this friendly fraud is, uh, 80% of the fraud figures, And, uh. Um, and sometimes if you order a product and you get the product, but you still make a chargeback on it, this is where the card schemes are going into the wrong direction.

Instead of addressing the front end, they’re just addressing the whole fraud. And they are, uh, they’re they’re putting strict measures and putting new fines or assessment fees on it. And, uh, this volume is now going into other alternative payment methods and is actually building a stronger case with other alternative payment account-to-account.

It can be very useful there where you don’t have a possibility to do a chargeback or a fraud registration. Um, of course there’s less consumer protection, but when the card schemes allow for the friendly fraud, the friendly fraud is actually just misuse of consumer protection. This misuse is causing, um, a lot of losses.

But if you say that, uh, Netflix is a fraudulent company, well, they have 2.5% fraud or Amazon. There are fraudulent companies. They have 1,011% fraud. But most of this is friendly fraud where you actually receive the product, what you claim you didn’t receive it and then you get a refund. So this this is something we actually did at PAYSTRAX.

We did the report. We did an on-market analysis in the UK. We had the we assigned to a marketing company to call a thousand cardholders in the UK. And we studied it and we found out that, um, the age group of below 30 years. They’re starting to do it as a sport. They’re starting to try to make a claim on the transaction, um, whether it’s a subscription that you’ve subscribed for and you no longer want to be a subscriber to it, or you order a product and you receive it and you still make a and you just try, try to register as a fraud.

And probably you get it by the money back. And then he profited when we asked, why do you do it? Some of the answers were that they did not realize. They do not realize that the merchant is paying in the end. And some of the answers were, yeah, we are beating the system. So the young people are beating the system.

They are buying a product and still get getting a refund or canceling a subscription by registering as a fraud and thereby they feel they are beating the system. So this is actually quite a dangerous trend. We are seeing this friendly fraud. This can actually be creating a generation of fraudsters or friendly fraudsters, and which is probably not what is intended.

00:15:19.240 — 00:17:57.750 · Speaker 2

It just reminds the example you showed in the study three, 4 or 5 years ago. I remember specifically in Scandinavia and Scandinavian countries, in Sweden and Norway, people started to fight against gambling and gambling activities and gaming/iGaming activities. So the beginning sounds is very, you know, friendly.

They just started to recreate the communities online. They started to, you know, identify different gambling and gaming sites. And what they did, they just tried to be united in a front. So they just in one single day, uh, they were requesting chargebacks for the payments they made on those websites specifically.

And this is why when, like, I don’t know, 100 to 200, 300 people in one single day started to request chargebacks from one specific website or a specific address or payment page. It raises a lot of concerns and alarms and alerts for Visa and Mastercard. And the beginning, it was quite the intention was really good.

I mean, they started like they understood how the system works. They understood the chargebacks and refunds. They can destroy or at least fight against gambling and gaming, which for them it was a very good initiative and they thought were like Robinhood’s in the woods and, you know, fighting with this.

But at the end it evolved. And, uh, when they finished fighting with gambling and gaming activities, they started to make coordinated attacks on classical account websites that they deliberately chose to be attacked because they were not aligned with their cultural values. I don’t know, for example, uh, some of the owner of a business tried to prove that he’s more left-wing politicians or left political views, and they were viewed with those guys.

They had like, right political views and they was like, okay, they are not like me. And we will have we’ll fight them. We’ll we’ll destroy his or her business. We saw that in Scandinavia and specifically in Sweden. We saw a lot of cases where classical business that a common business or business who made, uh, not selling only digital goods, but physical goods, and they tried to promote themselves on the internet.

They were just crushed by these attacks. And sometimes what you call friendly fraud can be used against real business. The business would could. Who are trying to evolve and to to to catch the last last car of a train called digitalisation and so on. So I hear I totally agree with you. And this can be a step for account to account, to appear back because like I saw, that ideal in the Netherlands started to be more popular last two years than it was.

So we are returning to 2015-16 when ideal was also very popular. So I will agree with you. You’re totally right.

00:18:00.830 — 00:18:16.190 · Speaker 2

What are the things do you think card schemes are doing wrong? As for example, with fraud? Uh, with this new new rules in fraud maybe exist some other things they are doing wrong and they just push the mark and the people to into account-to-account or other alternative payment methods.

00:18:16.230 — 00:21:08.090 · Speaker 1

There are many other ways to address the same problem. You don’t have to. I think they are doing it completely wrong. Uh, by just starting to penalize, uh, the merchants and, um, instead of addressing the problem, the the actual problems, which is, uh, the friendly fraud, the um and the, the sources can be like, if you have an iPhone then and you have a subscription to an app, you can you could just go into the subscription section of the iPhone and you can unsubscribe.

That’s it. And then you won’t pay the next fee. This is a way this and this is Apple is doing this. The banks should be able to do the same. So if there’s a you have a subscription and it comes on your cardholder bill every month, the bank has a fraud button. So you can trust the fraud button. You can register it as a fraud.

Why don’t they have a like an unsubscribe button next to it so you can actually unsubscribe instead of accusing the merchant to be a fraudster? And it’s just too easy. I can accuse you to be a fraudster and you don’t have anything to say. You you don’t have a chance to defend yourself. And all of a sudden the merchant looks like a fraudster.

Like Netflix does. And, uh, Amazon. They look like fraudsters because. But if you accuse someone of being a fraudster, then you should at least have something in your hand. You should have a police report or something because fraud is like criminal. The word means a criminal intent of fraud, of, um, deceiving someone with a financial gain.

That’s what fraud is. And so maybe the card scam. They should just change the uses of the name because it’s not. I cannot accuse you of fraud just by saying it. I can say, yeah, he’s a fraud. And then all of a sudden, the whole system works against this guy because he’s a fraudster. So there has to be some better ways to do this.

There are many, many other ways. The merchants, they have to have a chance to defend themselves. This is not a fair system where you can just press a button and all of a sudden you’re regarded as a fraudster. But what’s happening now is that this volume is moving away from the card schemes and into the direction of alternative payments, and among us are come to account where there is.

If you make a transaction, then the transaction is final. You cannot just revert it backwards because you have a change of mind or you of course you can. Then you just have to talk to the merchant. But okay, I ordered this product, but I changed my mind. Can you cancel my order or something similar? Or the order was not received and they obtained directly with it through the merchant.

So they are come to account payments. They don’t have any such uh, normally they should be consumer protection. And this is one of the pluses of the visa Mastercard systems.

00:21:08.130 — 00:22:46.910 · Speaker 2

At PAYSTRAX. You just announced, uh, stablecoins just you have stablecoins, stablecoin settlements. And I was thinking, okay, you launched USDC stablecoin settlements. I know, in 17 countries and jurisdictions. You try to work also with crypto because crypto became, well, this is the case where regulation works good.

I mean, when Mica appeared, everybody understood how crypto works and everybody started to feel safe to use crypto and so on. And I think if that we are possibly not looking all of us, we are a little bit wrong. We think that some of us think that account-to-account is the future. Some of us thinking that that car to cart is the future.

But I have a feeling that because more and more acquirers are implementing stablecoin settlements, and because more and more people have the possibility to pay with crypto, and we start to see that crypto is more embedded into different payment pages, financial flows. At one moment we will use, I think we will use crypto wallets as and will make or pay everything with crypto wallets like wallet to wallet system and it will be easy.

Will all variables already exist? We have even fiat-to-crypto, crypto-to-fiat cards, debit cards, but we even credit cards that we can use to popping from our wallet. And I think maybe this is the future. What do you see at your again is you as acquirer. What do you see? How do you see this trend? Maybe here we have to pay attention at.

00:22:46.950 — 00:24:55.290 · Speaker 1

Yeah. So this is this is very interesting. And, um, I fully agree with you that the, the, the trend will move to from, uh, to wallet to wallet payments, but that’s not so convenient for merchants, uh, because there needs to be reconciliation that needs to. There’s a lot of things that, uh, that are missing in that, that part.

And for us to maybe first, every new development in payments takes time. So I don’t think this will be changing in the next 1 or 2 years. Maybe we will see in three or 4 or 5 years whether stablecoin payments will become a payment method for products or service. Currently we’re not seeing it, and I was last week in a visa forum and and and parties and there was visa is not seeing it.

There’s no payments being made with stablecoins or with crypto. Almost none. People are using it to pay between themselves to make international transfers, and I think that will happen much quicker. So what is happening with this with the stablecoins is quite interesting and actually quite amazing to see.

There’s a whole new banking system being created beside of the traditional banking realms. There’s a whole new. If I’m paying you, I’ll have to transfer you €1,000 or whatever reason I can choose if I do it through my commercial back and send. Send it through Swift to you. Or I can go through to my wallet, which I have in my phone, and I can send it to you.

And it takes me, uh, the moment I press the button, you have received it. And a stablecoin. So that part will happen much quicker. That will happen very quick. But the payments with crypto or stablecoins on point of sale, I think that will take a little longer time to evolve. So I’m not so sure that will happen.

And again, you can test it. Do you know, have you done a payment with crypto?

00:24:55.370 — 00:25:16.900 · Speaker 2

I have done I’m to be very honest, I’m a very active user of crypto payments. And for some of our customers, we implemented even that novel fin. We implemented some processing crypto processing rails, which by the way, is not a very hard thing to do. It’s really easy. And it was done before. Even Micah, where we’re live, it was like like, okay, we have almost no regulations.

Yeah.

00:25:16.940 — 00:25:28.540 · Speaker 1

Yeah. Of course. And that’s when things develop. Of course. Now we’re over regulating this as. As we are dealing with so many things. So the development will slow down considerably.

00:25:28.580 — 00:25:52.020 · Speaker 2

I will be very honest. Today is very not so hard to do to implement it, to do it. So if you have a project, everything you have to do and you don’t have licenses, for example, everything you have to do is just to find a company that’s ready to take your under that’s company umbrella. That’s it. And because several years ago, where there’s no so many compliance and regulations and crypto people just developed open different MSPs around the world.

00:25:52.060 — 00:25:52.420 · Speaker 1

Yeah.

00:25:52.660 — 00:26:22.260 · Speaker 2

And now it’s just what I have to do with this company because they start to be strict, regulated and appear smart young guys and not only young that comes and say like, hey, I have an idea, I have money, I want to implement this. Can I use your company as an umbrella? And they do this legally because this is legal.

You signed an agreement. Possibly those guys are coming with as a technical vendor, they come with a technical perspective. Company, technical. I mean, the code itself, the rails itself. So yeah, it’s still possible to do this, but yeah, it creates a little bit of, uh, sorry for interrupting you, but this was.

00:26:22.300 — 00:26:40.460 · Speaker 1

This is exactly this is exactly. But, um, I see that you are, uh, in the industry, and, uh, you are I see that you you are the type of this using and making payments. But how about your parents? Do they trade in stablecoins or.

00:26:40.780 — 00:26:53.220 · Speaker 2

I just finished, uh, a three-month, uh, training of how to use a card that can be topped up with crypto and, uh, to fiat. And it was a very long story. I’m not sure the results about this.

00:26:53.260 — 00:26:55.180 · Speaker 4

No no no no no.

00:26:55.180 — 00:27:08.140 · Speaker 1

So I think it will take longer time. But if it’s if the user experience is good, if it’s simple, if it’s safe, then you can trust it, then it will gain traction. So that’s my prediction. It may take time to build this trust.

00:27:08.180 — 00:27:28.790 · Speaker 2

The last one closing. You’ve been in the business for 20 years. More than 20 years. You saw cycles of business development. I mean, all the cycles are identical. The topics of the cycles are different. Just in which cycle we are now and at which stage of the cycle we are currently in the fintech industry and payment industry, I think.

00:27:28.830 — 00:30:57.980 · Speaker 1

Well, um, so, uh, quite interesting because as I give you a little bit of background. So I started, uh, our earlier company Afterpay in 2002. Uh, and then I started to go to conferences and I was quite shocked. I went to a payment conference in Stockholm, and I think it was 2000 and 405. The payment business was quite upset because at that time the telecom companies were taking over payments.

All the telecom companies were creating a payments arm and they said, well, we are sending the invoices at the end of the month anyway we can send include all the purchase charges into the invoice and so on. So it was a shock. It was like, um, but this is like every conference has to have like a shock, something to attract people to come.

And so every, every few years there’s a new type of shock similar. So there’s been all kinds of new SD1. First, that was another shock. Uh, for for many of the banks that, uh, you have a new concept of EMI and PR and then SG two and then uh, uh, but now it’s, uh, a little bit about, uh, payment sovereignty and about the geopolitical, uh, situations.

Therefore we also have, uh, digital euro, we have the WERO, we have new alternative payment methods coming up. I still think it’s it’s similar to what that the telecom companies are taking over payments. I think, um, these will be additions. Uh, but in the end, um, there is so much development that has been an investment that has been done into the customer experience, into consumer protection, into all these programs with visa Mastercard, so that I think they will still continue to grow very strongly.

And, um, payment sovereignty. I’m not convinced. I mean, I’m a shareholder. These are US companies. I’m a shareholder in these US companies, so it’s not fully owned by us. It’s owned by people and the ecosystem in Europe. How many employees are working? How many people are working for visa, Mastercard in one or the other way?

In all the banks, the issuers, the acquirers, the payment service providers, all the different, uh, even fintechs who are supporting it, who are processing the payments. So this whole ecosystem means that most of the income of the of, of this business stays in Europe. So I’m not I don’t agree that this all goes to us, and the US is just profiting from European payments.

That’s not correct. So I think this is um, therefore I think now of course, Trump is has all kinds of ideas all the time. And this is, This has been mentioned. Uh, and Europe is now worried about the payment system located in the US, but I’m controlled from the US. But I think it’s not so much of a danger. There are many solutions as well to solve this, rather than to create a new payment system that takes another 20 years to gain traction.

So I don’t know if I answered the question, but I think that’s one of the big, uh, topics of the day. Of course, digital euros and digital currencies as well. I think they will also, uh, convert cash to digital cash there. It will take time for people to gain trust in them because, uh, all of a sudden you have a government issuing your cash, and they can of course, they will never look into what you’re doing.

That’s what they say, at least. But how much do you trust it? So that’s another side of the coin.

00:30:57.980 — 00:32:57.310 · Speaker 2

So I honestly think that we are in the stage when we have the cycle. What we are now is tokenization, transformation. I think we are moving. We are in this cycle. Yeah, because said free. Okay. Nobody saw the document of original document of PSD free but exist rumors that PSD free will also. Will will mitigate this topic.

So I think we are in this cycle. And I think we just passed the cycle when it became already a burden, an issue in how to solve it. So because of this. So we just passed the highest point. We are going a little bit down. I have an impression, I have a feeling. But we are we have very, very close. And an innovation will come into this tokenization market, tokenization, technical field that will allow us to make it everything very smoothly as we spoke earlier.

But even our parents will use the, you know, tokens every day without maybe even understanding that they are tokens. Well, to be honest, our parents are paying with Apple, Google, Google Pay, which is already as a token. But anyways, I think we are very close to transformation to something that will change and reshape the market because as you said, the same thing happened when it was telecoms in 2004 2006.

The same thing happened in 2010 when the same things happened with SDG two. So we are just arriving to to some innovations and we are still expecting a new shock. Is PSD free, which has to come very soon and I hope it will appear. And to be my humble opinion is that BSD free will appear together with European based stablecoin or wherever it will be.

Euro. See? Uh, and uh. Yeah, let’s let’s see where it goes. Anyways, Johannes, thank you very much for this good discussion. At the beginning we were a little bit more academical. We tried to, you know, to put the definitions, but at the end we had a very live discussion and it was a very it’s good, it’s good because these topics, you know, make us to, to to share the best opinions, to share the best thoughts of, of ourselves and uh, buy.

Sure. We have to shoot some episodes more about this, this this topic. Thank you very much.

00:32:57.350 — 00:32:58.710 · Speaker 1

Thank you. Thank you very much.

00:32:58.750 — 00:33:57.560 · Speaker 2

And for everyone else, please subscribe to Fintech Garden Podcast on our social media platforms. Press like. Waiting for your comments. Waiting for your suggestions. We are answering to all of them all the times. Maybe with some some delays, but we are doing this. Thank you for everyone for watching us.

We reached several weeks ago. We reached the level where we now have 1000 subscribers, and this is a big achievement for us. So we are very happy that our fintech community, Fintech Garden community, has reached this number and we can, you know, started to discuss more things and to provide you more information.

And people started to write more, more to to us. Me with my co-host Igor Tomych, whom you see in another podcast. We are very happy that we are building this kind of project. If you just reached out on LinkedIn, because me and Igor, we can provide you a lot of good information and insights, not only during the podcast, but also in a call in a private discussion, and we’ll be happy to chit-chat.

Thank you very much. Stay in touch. Have a nice day.